How Plato believed democracy leads to tyranny

HostMost of us are taught from a young age that democracy is the gold standard for how to run a country. We love the idea that everyone gets a say and no one is above the law. But the philosopher Plato lived through a version of democracy in ancient Greece, and he wasn't a fan. He actually argued that the more a society leans into freedom, the more likely it's to end up under the thumb of a cruel bully.

HostWhy was he so convinced that giving people power would eventually lead to them losing it all?

GuestIt comes down to what he thought happens to people when they have no limits. For Plato, democracy is like a party that never ends. The one thing people in a democracy value more than anything else is freedom. That sounds great on paper. You get to live however you want. But Plato argued that when a city gets drunk on too much freedom, things start to get messy. People start to look at any kind of rule or boundary as a personal attack. They don't just want to be free; they want to be equal to everyone in a way that ignores skill or experience. He thought this mindset eventually eats away at the foundation of the whole community.

HostBut equality is usually seen as the best part of the whole system. Is he saying it's a bad thing for a student to feel like they're on the same level as a teacher?

GuestTo him, it was a sign of a deeper problem. He describes this funny, slightly scary scene where the natural order of things just flips upside down. He says fathers start to act like their kids because they're afraid of being seen as bossy or old-fashioned. Sons stop respecting their parents because they want to show they're independent. Even the teachers start to flatter their students instead of actually teaching them, because they don't want to seem like they're better than anyone else. He even jokes that the horses and donkeys start walking down the street with their heads held high, bumping into anyone who doesn't get out of their way, because even the animals feel like they have an equal right to the road. It sounds silly, but his point is that when you get rid of all the boundaries, you lose the glue that holds a group together. You end up with a crowd of people who only care about what they feel like doing right this second.

HostThat sounds like he's just being a bit of a grouch about the younger generation. Every older person thinks the world is going to the dogs because things are changing.

GuestWell, he was worried about something much deeper than just bad manners. He thought that once people stop respecting any kind of expert or leader, they also stop respecting the truth. If everyone’s opinion is just as good as anyone else’s, then the person who actually knows what they're talking about gets drowned out by the loudest person in the room. In that kind of world, people don't vote for the best leader. They vote for the person who tells the best stories or makes the biggest promises. This is where the trap starts to form. When the city is full of different groups fighting over their own interests, and nobody is actually looking out for the whole, the people start to feel uneasy. They feel like the system is broken and they need someone to fix it.

HostSo a mess like that creates a gap for a strong person to step in. But how does that move from just a new leader to a total bully who won't leave?

GuestIt’s a very specific process. Plato says the future tyrant almost always starts out as a protector. He doesn't show up with an army and take over by force. Instead, he finds a group of people who feel cheated or scared—usually the poor who feel like the rich have all the power. He tells them, I'm the only one on your side. I'll stand up to the greedy folks at the top for you. The people get excited. They see him as their hero. To keep him safe from his enemies, they give him a small group of bodyguards. That's the moment everything changes. Once he has a small group of men with weapons who only answer to him, he doesn't need to ask for permission anymore. He uses that small bit of force to get rid of anyone who disagrees with him. By the time the people realize what has happened, their protector has turned into a monster who needs to keep the city in a state of constant fear or war just so they feel like they still need him.

HostIt sounds like a bad trade. They give up their actual freedom for the feeling of being safe, and then they end up with neither.

GuestThat's exactly it. And Plato thought this happened inside the person, too. He compared a democratic person to someone who just tries everything—one day they're on a health kick, the next they're drinking too much, one day they're interested in books, and the next they're just being lazy. They have no center. They're just a bundle of random wants. But the tyrant is what happens when one single, dark desire takes over and eats everything else in the person’s soul. He becomes a slave to his own greed, and because he's a slave to his own wants, he has to make everyone else a slave, too. He can never be happy, and he can never trust anyone, because he knows exactly how he got to the top.

GuestA city that lets its desires run wild eventually finds itself ruled by one man who can never satisfy his own.

HostThat wide open road of total freedom ends up being a very narrow path that leads right back to a locked gate.